PDA

View Full Version : Rolling the dice to learn fretboard position



MusicLover
01-15-2014, 08:26 PM
The other day I was using Elmeaux's 'phone number' method to memorize all of the notes
on the fretboard and wondered how I could find the specific fret position more quickly.

I then remembered that I had a collection of dice of different configurations and thought I could use
those to help quiz myself in finding fret positions.

I took out a 12-sided die and I would roll it to get a random number and then try to quickly find
that fret on my bass. That works great for the first twelve frets, but I have 24 frets on my bass
and wanted to go further.

I didn't have a 24-sided die, but I did have a 30-sided die, so I started using it and just
re-rolling the die if it comes up with a number greater than 24.

Elmeaux
01-16-2014, 10:26 AM
I have used unusual methods to learn the fretboard, too. Especially when I was new. I'd turn off the lights and try to find the fretboard places in the dark. Look for patterns of a visual nature, etc.

If you keep up with Jeff Berlin on Facebook, you'll find he doesn't approve of these sorts of things, but I tend to enjoy them. As a beginner, if the lights are off and you're looking for your Es on the fretboard, not only do you appreciate the actual MAP of the fretboard, but you start to get a feel for what an E really sounds like in different octaves.

Jeff Berlin suggests (if I understand his point) that the only way to understand music is to study MUSIC in its entirety. He did a video post once that I thought was very impressive in terms of total understanding of music. It would be the equivalent of someone saying, "This is my book," in English. Then the teacher says, "now say it as if the book owns YOU". Because we have a "command" of the language itself, it's not that hard a task.

Remember in school, when you learned language skills? Conjugating verbs, etc? In Jeff's video, he has a student play a sample piece in 4/4 time... then he says, "now play it in 3/4 time". The idea is that if you understand music as a whole, you can make the switch. I tried his method to play a piece I know, and was able to play it in either 4/4 or 3/4 time, but only on a very simple piece.

I guess Jeff might poo-poo my idea of hints and cheats, and maps and charts... or MuicLover's dice, but I think we all get to where we need to be in a way that works. I happen to think the dice thing is very cool. It's just an exercise on the way to becoming better at the bass in general.

http://www.thunderrow.com/showthread.php?2652-Helpful-Little-Sheet&highlight=helpful+sheet

Did y'all get my OTHER little charts? The multi-coloured one has a correction, so make sure you read the thread to get the corrected version.

Keep the brainstorming coming, ML! I love it!

Noel1983
01-16-2014, 01:01 PM
That dice trick is kind of cool.

As for what Jeff Berlin might say, take it with a grain of salt. While I am not a master of the bass or music theory, as a nurse I have spent more that 20 years teaching people complex things on a variety of subjects. People learn things in different ways, and it is important to be able to relate the material in an understandable way. There is no "one right way" to learn things. The only people that will tell you otherwise have something to gain by selling their method to you.

As for me, the greatest teaching ability of the products like Rocksmith and Band Fuse is their ability to teach the fretboard. While watching the note highway, or tablature move across the tv screen, there just isn't time to be looking at the screen, then the fretboard then the screen again. As a result, I'm pretty comfortable with my fretboard up to about the 19th fret. My problem comes when all 4 strings get involved and I need to get up and down the neck quickly.

Elmeaux
01-16-2014, 04:37 PM
As for what Jeff Berlin might say, take it with a grain of salt.

Never. Not with a grain of salt. Jeff is a bass master and everything he says on that topic earns respect. I may not agree that his method is the ONLY method, or that it is the right one for everybody, but I won't brush it aside as not worth listening to.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I only WISH I could meet the standards of men like JB or Roy (to name a few) and be the kind of student who earns THEIR respect.

Lol... now sit down and face the blackboard! ;)

Noel1983
01-17-2014, 04:02 PM
Never. Not with a grain of salt. Jeff is a bass master and everything he says on that topic earns respect. I may not agree that his method is the ONLY method, or that it is the right one for everybody, but I won't brush it aside as not worth listening to.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I only WISH I could meet the standards of men like JB or Roy (to name a few) and be the kind of student who earns THEIR respect.

Lol... now sit down and face the blackboard! ;)

I stand by what I said. I didn't say to brush aside what Jeff Berlin says or how he teaches. I said that there is no ONE way to learn things, and the people who say that there is are motivated by one reason or another for getting you to learn their way.

PaulUK
01-19-2014, 06:09 AM
There is an interesting column by Jeff Berlin on this very subject in the February 2014 (100th) edition of Bass Guitar Magazine. Erudite, thoughtful and controversial as ever in response to a reader's specific question.

Jeff uses much the same "vested interest" angle, though from his perspective, to comment on teaching methods.

Worth a read, if you get the opportunity.

On a related subject, I am intrigued by the whole "telephone number" fretboard learning approach. I am a predominately "left brain" person (if you'll forgive the use of this lazy myth), that is, logical, analytical and (by both tendency and training) unusually numerate. I can readily see and appreciate the tidy arithmetic involved in Elmeaux's (and latterly Musiclover's) workings.

What I can't understand though is how this helps in learning the fretboard. I perceive the overall objective to be one of linking music notation and sound to kinaesthetic knowledge, to a point where this becomes instinctive. That is, read score (and/or hear note), place fingers, play note, confirm aurally. As a further simplification, fundamentally then the task is to go from "read note" to "place fingers", the rest being an automatic consequence of getting these first two stages right.

What then is the benefit of introducing a further stage into the sequence? That is, read note ("middle line on staff, it's a D" - though actually one no more does this after a while than reading "cat" by noting the existence of "a" as the middle letter), convert to a number ("E string 10, A string 5", etc.), place fingers, play note.

I can see that, in isolation, telephone numbers would help locate each individual position of a particular note on the fingerboard. But then so does linking the position via its sound, the musical score, scales, or anything else with a direct musical association that is practised sufficiently, and all of these have ongoing benefit.

I'm missing something, aren't I?

(I'm also slightly worried I sound a bit like Jeff Berlin...........:))

brian_primrose
01-19-2014, 07:56 AM
(I'm also slightly worried I sound a bit like Jeff Berlin...........:))

In language, some, but with a different accent. On the bass...I haven't heard you play but I am prepared to be really, really impressed.

Brian

Elmeaux
01-19-2014, 10:30 AM
Nah, Paul, you aren't missing a thing.

The charts, drawings, maps, etc, are of no value musically.

I originally mapped them so I could get a visual appreciation of how beautifully and symmetrically designed was our fretboard! They aren't designed to replace proper musical involvement in the learning process. Just (as you said) a way to see the mathematical logic in it.

Roy uses a similar "mental chart" when he describes the two-up, two-over rule for octaves. A beginner's aid to bring a visual aspect to a highly aural experience. Like you, Paul, I think the best way to learn the fretboard is to learn the notes through musical correlation. No student is ever going to master music through telephone numbers.

BUT... it does have the possibility of engaging a new student - with no musical training - by making the formidable fretboard something he or she can relate to in familiar terms (and then possibly embrace with less intimidation). The patterns can be absorbed subconsciously as the student continues with musical instruction.

As you progress through the TMBG lessons, you will rely less and less on maps and charts, because they will have been buried in the back of your mind. I have fretboards drawn on white boards. I have long strings of numbers (like MusicLover's list) on the wall. I have printouts of scales all over the place. I don't cheat with them, but I see them every time I walk by, and they manage to weasel their way into that place in my brain that keeps them just warm enough to remember.

Most of us who have chosen TMBG as a method for learning bass have done so because we very much appreciate the visual way in which it is presented. The moving fretboard, the loops of visual play-along... we appreciate something we can SEE.

Bottom line is that I want to learn music, but I don't want to join the marines to get there. I admire those who can complete the "Parris Island" approach to musical instruction, but that's not going to be me. Charts can be a nice comfy place to fall once in awhile. They make me happy.

I'm too fat and old to be a marine, anyway.

:p

PaulUK
01-19-2014, 01:09 PM
Brian,

I am a left-handed 54 year old man, with limited free time and less natural talent, learning to play right-handed bass.

You should actually prepare to be really, really underwhelmed, if anything............

I do though thank you for your encouraging words, they made me smile.

Paul

PaulUK
01-19-2014, 04:17 PM
El mo,

What you say about wanting something you can see made me realise that I have changed the way I approach TMBG.

When I first started, I was an absolute beginner on any musical instrument and I always used the song loops and followed the animated fretboard.

For the last two or three lessons though, my approach has been to use de-tabbed Sibelius scores alongside mp3 versions of the songs. Although I watch Roy's performances as part of each lesson I don't play along with the band via the DVD anymore.

I think this is because I now consider that I am simply learning a song from a musical score, rather than trying to follow a fretboard animation on a screen, and also I can listen better without the visual distraction of the band.

Now I think about this, it feels like enormous progress in my musical education. I'm sight reading - how about that!

(Very, very slowly incidentally, but still.........).

This has been a great day!

Thank you!

TobiasMan
01-19-2014, 06:24 PM
I understand your relinquishing playing with the band in order to learn the songs but, if you are intending to play with a band at some point in time, I think it is critical to get used to the slight variations that occur in a band setting (timing and notes) and follow the visual/aural clues that tell you where everyone is going.

I assume that if you were playing in a cover band, the entire band would be expected to practice until the entire piece was fairly identical to the way the original band played it or, if you were a pro band on tour, playing the same 18 songs every night for a year, you'd pretty much have the mechanics down. The bands I play in are neither and we have to be able to subtly adapt to have the outcome sound good to the audience. Most of the time they don't realize we did it a bit different, but if we weren't able to do "different" together, it'd be a disaster.

Learn to play it, then certainly give learning to play it with the band another try. ;)

PaulUK
01-20-2014, 12:26 AM
Tobiasman,

I completely accept what you say in principle, although I'm less convinced that playing along with an unchanging video is the same as working with the dynamics of a live band.

My main realisation was that I am no longer relying on a fretboard animation to help locate my fingers. I suspect, given your prior experience, that you never did.

Your point though is well made, I've felt for a while that the time is fast coming when I will need to find some live playmates.

MusicLover
01-20-2014, 06:08 AM
PaulUK,

The phone number system is just a tool to help you learn the entire fretboard. That is all.

Learning the entire fretboard can help you break out of the first five frets (first position) and discover the rest of your instrument. If you are trying to play a musical idea and run out of strings to play it, you might look to other areas in the neck where all the notes are co-located without you having to jump around the fretboard while you are playing. There are other places on the neck where you can find the same note (though a different tone) and stay in the same octave.

I first acquired the idea of learning the entire fretboard when I watched a bass workshop with Anthony Wellington on YouTube. Anthony is the bass player for Victor Wooten's band and a great teacher in his own right. He questioned the group asking how many bass players actually know their instrument well. He quizzed the group asking if they could find all the 'c' notes on their bass at that moment (and he then proceeded to show them all the locations on his bass).

I also watched a promotional video for the Atlanta Institute of Music concerning the entrance test for bass players to join their school. What was one of the questions they asked? Find all of note (insert note here) on the fretboard.

On a similar thought, I just finished read a great book by Jayme Lewis (pro bass player in Los Angeles) entitled 'Advice for the Modern Worship Musician: Things You Were Never Told (But Should Know by Now)' and he mentioned learning the entire fretboard so that you never have to worry again about what note you are jumping to. He offered the idea of spending five minutes a day and learn just five frets of one string. Depending on how many strings you have, you could memorize the fretboard in 20-25 days.

So I believe that it is good to learn the whole fretboard as it will expand your musical possibilites create beautiful songs and solos.

So what ever method helps you learn the fretboard and keeps you motivated to play bass, I say go for it.

PaulUK
01-20-2014, 07:48 AM
Hi MusicLover,

I completely embrace the importance of learning the whole fretboard to an instinctive level and within a musical context. It seems to me self-evidently necessary for a bassist and it is one of the reasons that my daily warm-up includes precisely the exercise that Anthony Wellington undertook, though for all the notes on my fretboard and using sharps one day and flats the next.

I was actually querying the efficacy of the "telephone number" mechanism itself, rather than the benefit of its intended outcome.

If telephone numbers work for you, I would not for a moment decry them. Each to their own.

That said, I remain unconvinced that it is an efficient route to the intended outcome (which, I believe, is greater musical rather than mechanical knowledge) and wonder if the invested time would provide a better return (albeit with more frustration to start with) by using it to link the fretboard positions directly to sound and notation, via scales and similar. Certainly this is the case for me, although I realise that each of us needs to find our own way.

As you say, whatever works.

MusicLover
01-21-2014, 07:36 AM
Hi PaulUK,

I had forgotten about Anthony's exercise for the fretboard. Thanks for reminding me about it! What a great idea to break up the flats one day and the sharps another.

I think you hit the nail on the head that ultimately you want to know the fretboard at an instinctive level and I think it is by a musical context that it is ultimately
important. Knowing where to find all the 'c' notes is helpful for finding jump points, but once your in the new location, you need to know the musical neighborhood once you are there.

I think that this instinctive knowledge comes from time spent in those areas of the fretboard, working through a musical passage (whether it is scales or solo ideas or some sort of exercise in those areas). Experience is the way to getting that knowledge and that takes time and dedication. It is something that I always wanted to learn but was intimidated by the prospect of learning 120 notes by rote memory. Running across these tools has given me a ray of hope that it is actually possible for me to memorize the whole fretboard and that is quite liberating.

The telephone method is working for me, but it is just a tool until I apply a musical context to those other areas of the fretboard and really feel comfortable there. Just like the cirlcle of fifths helps me identify key signatures, notes in a key, order of sharps and flats, etc. it is just a tool until that knowledge is baked in to the point I don't have to think about it. Once the knowledge is ingrained, then the tool is no longer necessary.

If you have other exercises or tools that you have found in your bass playing experience, please let me know.
I really want to take my bass playing to the next level. I am in lesson two of TMBG right now (just picked up TMBG in the last month or two).
Thankfully it has all been review so far, but I am following the advice of taking things slowly.

Thanks for taking the time to write your posts. I really appreciate your input.

PaulUK
01-21-2014, 11:54 AM
ML,

Here are a few ideas from other TR members:

http://www.thunderrow.com/content.php?1819-What-is-your-practice-regime

Paul

Elmeaux
01-21-2014, 02:52 PM
ML,

Here are a few ideas from other TR members:

http://www.thunderrow.com/content.php?1819-What-is-your-practice-regime

Paul

Thanks for reminding us of this great post!

MusicLover
01-21-2014, 07:34 PM
ML,

Here are a few ideas from other TR members:

http://www.thunderrow.com/content.php?1819-What-is-your-practice-regime

Paul
Paul,
Thanks for sharing your practice routine in that post!