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Noel1983
02-14-2014, 09:08 AM
I am thinking about upgrading my amp to go with the new bass, and I want to bring my questions to the forum.

First of all, is a tube amp head REALLY that much better than solid state to warrant the ridiculous prices?

Right now I use a Behringer BXL-450 Ultrabass (45 watts). I have found two tube amp heads from Ashdown that are less power than my current amp, but are reasonably affordable:
http://ashdownmusic.com/products/1/Bass-Amplification/1/Valve/11/Little-Bastard-/
and
http://ashdownmusic.com/products/1/Bass-Amplification/1/Valve/13/CTM15/

But would downgrading the power really be a step forward in the sound that I produce? Also, if I jump off the tube amp cliff, what would be a good cabinet to pair with those heads?

My other option is to stay with a solid state amp, and I have two combo amps that I am looking at:
http://www.fender.com/amps/bass-amplifiers/rumble-150-150-watt-bass-combo-15-speaker-and-horn-120v/
and
https://www.orangeamps.com/products/bass-guitar-amp-combos/crush-pix-series/crush-pix-cr100bxt/

I wonder if anybody has experience with either of those amps. Right now I am leaning towards the Orange, if for no other reason than they think an Ibanez SR1205 sounds good enough with their amps to be one of the demo tracks.

TobiasMan
02-14-2014, 10:43 AM
Tube amps have been found to generally perform above their weight class, and typically have a warmer tone than solid state amps. THey also use tubes, which are relatively expensive and most tube amps require them all to be replaced and re-biased at the same time - also costly.

I know that Elmeaux loves her Fender Rumble. If you were looking at the Fender or the Orange amps, you'll have to compare feature to feature and certainly try them out with your bass. Every combo has its own tone/sound and you need to find the one that's right for you.

ghsky1
02-14-2014, 01:15 PM
For what it's worth, I had a Fender Rumble 150 and really loved it while I was only playing at home. Once I became more mobile, we had to part ways because it proved to be too cumbersome loading in and out of the backseat. I switched to Markbass for both the amp and cab and I believe that the cab is tight and fantastic. You could not go wrong with probably any Markbass cab. I had also considered the Markbass CMD 102P combo.

Nicki
02-14-2014, 03:00 PM
IMO, tube amps aren't generally worth the extra money. Certainly back in the bad old days of solid-state, tube amps were the way to go. Now, I'm not so sure that's true. I think they've come back as trendy, 'cause the old guys with money to burn like to play what they used to play. Nothing wrong with that, but I think solid-state has been unjustly maligned. Like anything, you've got to play through them and see what you like.

I have a solid state GK amp (700 RBII), and it certainly has a nice warm sound on my Bergantino cab. I can barely crack it off zero and it just about rattles my eye-teeth out. Do you plan on playing out with this combo at all? 100w is not a lot for bass.

I've tried many Fender rumbles. They're fine. Certainly better than a lot of combos out there.

Orange are also decent, but pricey and underpowered compared to others out there. Orange also have a very specific sound. You have to judge for yourself whether you like it or not.

If you can find one, check out the Promethean combos. They're made by Ibanez, with consultation from Carol Kay. I've been gigging with my Promethean for 1.5 years. I have a P3115. It's 300 watts, and is perfect for a small venue. Really nice, warm sounding combo.

I don't personally like the sound of Markbass combos. They're very sterile-sounding to me. But again, everyone's ears are different. :)

Noel1983
02-15-2014, 04:22 PM
Thanks everyone for your help. The main problem with being able to test out any amp purchase that I make is that I only have one music store that is really "local". When I looked up an authorized Orange dealer, the closest to me is 125 miles. The local music store is an authorized Fender dealer, but has obscene mark-up rates for anything that I order.

This pretty much forces me to shop online for my gear. Luckily, talking to you guys, reading reviews, and YouTube videos have helped to keep me from being disappointed. I know that, in most things, you get what you pay for and certainly musical instruments and equipment fall into that category. So maybe I am looking at it in the wrong way, but I just can't wrap my head around a 30 watt tube amp costing $850. All I can think of is the old tube operated tv we had back in the 70's and its $0.50 tubes. Thanks, Nicki, for confirming what I already suspected.

I was looking at this Markbass last night:
http://www.markbass.it/product_detail.php?id=240

There was ONE YouTube video of it being played and it sounded good. I thought that maybe attaching a 2 x 10 cab to it might make for a pretty cool rig. I don't know much about that stuff so I was just tossing ideas around in my head.

Then I went to Carvin guitars, and they have several amp rigs, and the prices are so LOW that I am suspicious of them. I know that Roy plays a Carvin in the TMBG course material, but I don't know what kind of amps he uses. I would ask, but the only "askroy" question I ever fielded never got a response from him. I do know that when I was pricing guitars before my Ibanez purchase I looked at a Carvin, and that went from $1000 to $2700 and out of my price range in a hurry. So I know that they are not shy about charging for their services!

Does anybody have any experience with Carvin amps? I tried YouTube, but they only had one video of a 250watt/15" speaker combo being played. If I want to go the Carvin route, I am taking a serious look at the Carvin MB 1215 combo:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/MB1215
It utilizes the same 250w amp, but has a 12" woofer, 6.5" mid, and a titanium tweeter. It also come with a separate cab with a 15" woofer in it. All for $600. Has anybody owned/played/heard Carvin amps? Is this a case of "too good to be true"?

TobiasMan
02-15-2014, 05:05 PM
The Carvin amp appears to have some pretty flexible controls. I especially like the low/mid and upper/mid semi parametric tone controls. Lots of flexibility there to shape your tone. Don't know what the tone Shape knob does.

Since it is a D class amp, be aware that while the power is good, it will likely not be able to provide any headroom above that power level. Many have found the D class amps to distort when hit with normal music peaks when set at much above 2/3 of max power as they have little/no headroom above the rated level and can be nasty sounding when they clip.

That being said, if you aren't going to be pushing the volumes on the unit (smaller venues and home use would appear to be OK, you shouldn't run into clipping issues with it.

Carvin has come a long way in the last 15-20 years. At one point in time, many suggested that the only good stuff in the Carvin catalogue was in the guitar part, but I understand that has changed quite a bit. Never played a Carvin amp, so can't give any personal observations.

Did a little searching over at Talkbass and the MB12 head seems to be fairly well liked. It would appear they do recommend the added speaker as there are a number who found the standard cab, with the downward pointed 12" speaker sounding a little thin. The external 15" cab pulled more power from the amp and appears to have rounded out the sound. The consensus there seems to be that it is best suited to a practice, small venue amp.

There is lots to browse on Talkbass with a Carvinguitars area and a thread going on the Carvin MB combos and amps.

DaveB
02-15-2014, 06:47 PM
I really like my Carvin MB210 combo (250 watt amp in a cabinet with two 10" drivers). I've had it for a little over two years now. I'm pretty sure that I got one of the very first production units. The reason that Carvin prices seem to be "too good to be true" is that you are buying direct from the factory instead of through a distributer/retailer with the added mark-ups. Also, they have a ten day return policy so if you don't like it you can ship it back for a full refund (you do have to pay for return shipping). They ONLY sell direct, so their business model demands that they offer quality products and exceptional customer service. They have been in business since 1946 so I'd say that their model is working okay. I also have a Carvin Brian Bromberg Signature B25 bass which I love. I am currently GASing over a Carvin PB5 bass (I aim to have it in time for Roy's Bass Camp this summer).

Roy has several Carvin basses including the B4 (used in TMBG), an SB5000 (which you can see in the video currently on the first page here on TR), an LB76 (which you can see on the cover of his Urban Legend CD), and a brand-spanking-new PB5 which he was bragging about recently on TalkBass (sometimes I really hate him [he says green with envy]). Roy is an Endorsing Artist for Carvin, but I think that is just for their basses. He also endorses Eden Amplifiers. There is a page here on the Row somewhere that gives a list of some of his equipment and endorsments.

5Slinger
02-16-2014, 09:11 AM
Noel,

Of course all opinions are subjective but IMHO;

>>First of all, is a tube amp head REALLY that much better than solid state to warrant the ridiculous prices?<< NO, in the old days maybe but today's technology has brought forth some pretty awesome amps.

Our practice spot has a Rumble 75 that I use regularly. Pretty good but not great. However, good enough for what I am doing. The Orange stuff is good, but you pay a premium for the name. Ok, Nicki, mentioned the Promethean line from Ibanez. Those are awesome if you can find one (hard to come by). They are compact and powerful. Trust me once you leave the basement, size does matter. I had the 450 watt head with 10inch cab. It was fine for practice and small gigs, but the 10 inch cone for outdoor venues was just not enough. That said, I used to remove the head, and pair it with a GK 2x12 cab and it rocked pretty hard. (Note, don't buy any other amp from Ibanez...)

I know own (however) an Aguilar TH500 and two Aguilar GS112 cabs. I like the split as if we are playing indoors I only need one cab, if outdoors I bring both. I went with the Aggies because I heard them at a friends gig (his bass players uses them) and they just sound right to me. So I sold my Promethean gear (great return on investment in the Promethean btw). Either way, I like head and cab separates as it gives a bit more flexibility when carting gear back and forth.

As for the Carvin gear, Carvin makes awesome guitars, IMHO, the best bang for the buck, all custom and considerably less expensive than comparable models from big brand makers. Their bass amps are also very good, but again it is a matter of personal preference. As with their guitars, you get an awful lot for your money. I have played through them, off and on, and they sound great. But for my Aggie love, I would be playing through Carvin today. As someone mentioned, Carvin is able to deliver at such a great price point is because they cut out the middle man and deal directly with you (the customer).

Good luck with it. Keep us posted on what you ultimately decide.

Best,

AB

Noel1983
02-16-2014, 11:42 AM
Thanks again to everybody for their input.

I forgot to say it in one of my previous posts, but I don't need tons of power. I don't play in a band, and I am NOWHERE near good enough to even think about auditioning for one. My entire song repertoire consists of about 10-12 songs (not counting the TMBG practice songs), and I can't even play most of them perfectly without being hand fed the notes via Rocksmith!

Also, my apartment is pretty small. My living room/practice area is about 12' x 20'. I have neighbors left, right, and below all of which are senior citizens. All say that they can't even hear me practicing (I set the master volume at "7"), so I figure I can go louder, and get some better sound shaping with a new amp. However, whatever route I go I won't be maxing out the volume.

@ DaveB: I was looking at the MB210 in my initial comparisons on the website. That combo would also allow me to pick up a decent rhythm machine (Alessis or Boss) so that I can go away from the metronome and just do all my practice locking in with a drum kit. What got me looking at the MB1215 was the 6.5" mid range speaker. Since I turn the mid frequency up on the bass I thought that it might be a nice addition to my set-up. If it isn't too much trouble is there any way that you could record a short clip of how your MB210 sounds so that I can hear it? (Please don't go too far out of your way to do so, if it is easy, then cool, if not, then cool.)

@ Tobias: If I remember correctly (and I might not) I believe the tone shape knob on the amp is to cut/boost the mids for an instant slap set-up. Thanks for pointing me towards Talk Bass forums. I will do some digging there.

@Slinger: I looked at the Promethean amps early in my search (Ibanez guitar, why not an Ibanez amp, right?), but I saw some fairly scathing reviews and they made me gun shy. But maybe I should give them a little harder of a look.

TobiasMan
02-16-2014, 06:24 PM
Yep, the golden faced amps and cabs in the TMBG videos are Eden gear.

Eden has a new "E" series of combos http://www.eden-electronics.com/products/eseries/ that include a 115, a 210, a 110, a 28 and a 18. They are high end amp/combos and a bit pricey compared to Carvin, etc.

As you can see in my signature, my rigs are almost entirely Eden (with the exception of a QSC power amp I use with either of the two Eden preamps - the WP100 and the WTX1000N).

Excellent stuff and I'm not looking to replace anything soon. May take a look at David Nordschow's (he's the designer of Eden gear before it was bought out) new DNA equipment. Eden went through a couple of subsequent ownership iterations before ending up as a bit of a boutique brand under Marshall.

Ditto
02-16-2014, 08:48 PM
"OLD GUYS WITH MONEY TO BURN" <----------------------- I guess that means me.

3718

Every thing is a matter of opinion. Go out and see some live shows and look what the bass player is playing. I was going to go Ampeg before I chose MESA. I also like that fact that MESA is 100% built in the United States, and that was important to me. As far as tubes vs solid state. A Tube amps have a wider range of tone then a solid state ones, also a 100W Tube amp won't clip or cut out when you drive it at 100W like solid state amps do when you drive them close to max output. My big gig every year is on 4th of July and is outside, so I need the head room and big speakers. Again like was typed, go out and listen to what you have available and buy what meets your needs. I just love my MESA, but I guess I just have money to burn........... :)

brian_primrose
02-17-2014, 07:00 AM
Hi Noel.

If your practice space is small, although 12*20 is a good size, you may want to stay away from the 15" driver. I read somewhere that to hear the amp properly, you should be at least a foot away for each inch of diameter. Further it the sound may actually be louder for your neighbours than yourself as the wavelength of your low E is >27 feet, and the low B is 36.6 feet. She who must be obeyed keeps reminding me of this.

Good luck with the search.

Brian

Elmeaux
02-17-2014, 07:44 AM
... and make sure to keep us posted on your choice.

Me? I'm still rrrrrumbling.

Noel1983
02-17-2014, 09:45 AM
@ Ditto: Yeah, I fell in love with the Mesa 30watt drop top before the $2800 price tag caused me to have a minor stroke!!!

@ Brian: I'm not arguing with your post, but do you remember where you heard that the amp should be 1 foot away for each inch of the speaker? Because if that is accurate, maybe I would be better off looking at a 2x8 or 2x10 configuration. That way I can be about in the middle of the room instead of out against the far wall.

@ Tobias: I went to the Eden site yesterday and also saw a few videos of them being played. They were impressive but quickly climbed out of my price range.

I found a flaw (for me) in the Carvin amps. There is no "auxiliary input" so that I can't plug in my MP3 player. And I have always recorded the TMBG songs and play them through my amp and jam along. Without having a way to correct this, I don't know if the Carvin is right for my needs. Any ideas on how to circumvent this problem?


UGH! All I want is an affordable amp that has every possible feature and makes me sound like a god. Is that too much to ask for?!? :D

ghsky1
02-17-2014, 10:51 AM
I didn't notice this amp mentioned yet and I hadn't thought of it until you talked about an auxiliary input but have you looked at Roland (http://www.sweetwater.com/c579--Bass_Guitar_Combo_Amps/popular/params=eyJkaW1lbnNpb24iOnsiQnJhbmQiOlsiNDI5NDk2NzI 3OSJdfX0)? I don't have any experience with this particular amp but my first guitar amp was a Cube 30x which I really enjoyed.

Elmeaux
02-17-2014, 02:53 PM
I used to have a Roland. Fantastic amp! I'd buy one again in a heartbeat, were I richer!

Noel1983
02-17-2014, 03:31 PM
Alright, I am getting the field narrowed down. I think that I am going to get one of these 4 amps:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/MB12
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/MB210
http://www.eden-electronics.com/products/eseries/ec28.aspx
http://www.fender.com/amps/bass-amplifiers/rumble-350-350-watt-bass-combo-2x10-speakers-and-horn-120v/

To make up my mind, I still need a little help. When I bought my Behringer amp, the salesman told me that an 8" speaker with a bass doesn't really provide very good sound reproduction. Is that true? If it is true, does that apply to just one 8" speaker, or would a 2x8 just provide me with twice the poor sound quality?

In case you can't tell, I am leaning towards the Eden. It sounded good in the YouTube video that I saw. Right now, the amp in second place is the Fender. They are many recordings and reviews of the Fender 350 on YouTube and it sounds good to me. I'm just worried that the 350 watts (more than 7x the power I currently have) will be far too much in this space. The Eden's 180 watts is "just" 4x my current power. The Carvins are on the outside, but still possible, right now because of their inability to plug and play my MP3. Although if anybody has ideas on how to get my MP3 and the bass into them at the same time then they are right back in play.

So there it is, can I actually get faithful sound reproduction through a 2x8 setup? Or am I better off getting the 2x10 of the Fender and just not turning it up very far?

Elmeaux
02-17-2014, 04:45 PM
That Rumble 350 will reveal to you all the weaknesses of your house. Every time you play, supports will squeak and shake, plaster will crumble, wiring bundles will buzz, nails will loosen, and the filaments in light bulbs will pop. Of course, any of those amps will probably do the same.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Batten down the hatches once you've made your choice!!

TobiasMan
02-17-2014, 05:56 PM
If the cabinet is well designed and the speakers are long throw, 8" speakers will do just fine - maybe not for a 5 or 6 string with a low B.

Two 8's will give more speaker area than a single 10" cab and with similar sensitivity, will be louder than a single 10". Eden cabs and amps are known for their headroom, handling transient peaks well above the rated levels.

Don't know what the frequency range is for the new combos. Eden used to always include the cab's sensitivity (how much volume you get at 1 meter distance with 1 watt of power) and the response range. It is there for all the D cabs, but I don't see it for the E combos.

Noel1983
02-17-2014, 08:07 PM
@ Elmeaux: lol, even though I am sure that you are serious. I'm halfway tempted to get the Fender just to see how solid this place is. It was built during the Johnson administration. About 10 months ago my (former) neighbor to the left burned herself to death about 3 feet behind my head as I watched tv. (For the record, drinking, smoking, and a tank of oxygen do NOT mix well). I didn't even realize there was a real fire until my apartment filled with smoke and the flood of water came pouring into here.

Also for the record, the water from the fire was about six inches deep in my living room. The Behringer amp did NOT stay dry as it sat plugged in with the power outlet completely submerged behind it. And the amp was sitting in the deepest water that was in my apartment. I gave the amp about a week to dry out before plugging it back in, and it sounded the same as it did before getting wet. They are built solid.

Anyway, I probably better stay away from too much power. It won't be much fun if I always have to wear headphones.

brian_primrose
02-18-2014, 06:58 AM
Hi Noel.
No. I am sorry, but I don't remember. A quick search through my favorites and Google did not help, either.
Brian

Ditto
02-18-2014, 11:40 AM
Speaker size?

As Glenn Letch says 10s 10s and more 10s

I guess the industry standard for Bass speakers are 10's

But I find I really love the tone I get through my 2X12s

Again plug in and play, buy what you like.

Do you ever go to the town 125 miles away? Maybe just one day take a reaod trip and load up your bass. I dove to Reno NV once to get a Fender P-Bass in the color I wanted...

Nicki
02-18-2014, 12:22 PM
Do you ever go to the town 125 miles away? Maybe just one day take a reaod trip and load up your bass. I dove to Reno NV once to get a Fender P-Bass in the color I wanted...

Ditto has a great point! I've driven much more than 150 miles before to get gear, too. Packing up your bass and playing your setup through an amp is really the best way to evaluate. I see you're in New York...if you're up for a roadtrip, I'd highly recommend checking out Parkway Music in Albany. They've got an excellent selection of both new and used bass stuff.

http://www.parkwaymusic.com/amps/used_vintage_bass_amps.shtml

Noel1983
02-18-2014, 03:13 PM
Ditto And Nicki: You guys are right. I've certainly made longer road trips for less important items. (God bless Everclear and fireworks!)

Noel1983
03-12-2014, 05:18 PM
O.K., so I have done a LOT of shopping, and have a new setup. Rather than go to each individual forum page, I will just list my purchases here.

I bought an Auralex GRAMMA mat to isolate the bass and stop my apartment from vibrating. Even before getting my new amp, the old Behringer sounded completely different set on top of this thing. If you don't own a sound isolation mat, I suggest you look into one. They aren't expensive and really change the sound of an amp.

I ended up choosing the Carvin MB210 amp.With the cold and crappy weather in the Northeast, I was too lazy to take long roadtrips searching everything out. DaveB. has been a consistent source for solid advice, and he said that he loved his, so I took the plunge. I gotta say that I love mine as well. There is just an incredible amount of sound shaping possibilities with this thing.

The one thing missing on the Carvin amp was an auxiliary input. Behringer makes the MicroMix MX400, this is a small, affordable ($25) 4 line mixer, so I bought that. I also purchased a store demo Alesis SR-16 drum machine so that I can leave the metronome and just practice locking in with drums. I bought an AKG P2 microphone that is specifically tuned for bass. I got new cables. And a set of LaBella Original '54 Flatwounds for the SR1200 rounds everything out.

So, here is a couple of recordings made through the Carvin amp, with me on the bass.

I chose 'Everybody Hurts' because it is a slow, sad ballad, but mainly because about 80% of the song is just a bass, a piano, and the dude singing.

'Pour Some Sugar on Me' is here because that is the ONLY song that Rocksmith has taught me to play 100% without the notes.

ghsky1
03-12-2014, 07:11 PM
Noel,
That is funny about the Rochsmith. Pour Some Sugar On Me is the only song I ever learned on it too. Must be because it was the first thing that came up when I started the game.
Anyway, congrats on your new acquisitions. That should keep you satisfied for a short while. It won't be too long before you get the itch to buy more stuff-and more stuff-and more stuff. I've been considering getting one of those GRAMMA pads for my cab and I'm also thinking about a Gator case for the head. My rationale? The case would be a little more protective and it would give my a good place to display all these music related stickers that are currently adorning my desktop.

Elmeaux
03-12-2014, 08:16 PM
Hey, Noel1983, those are really good songs. You're coming along nicely. I love 'em both!

Congrats on the new gear, too!

DaveB
03-13-2014, 09:18 AM
welcome to the wonderful world of Carvin Bass Gear! I think that you will really enjoy that MB210. I know that I enjoy mine! A word of caution about their website:

Repeated browsing of the Carvin Bass Guitar pages will induce an acute case of GAS. You WILL want to buy a new bass (or two, or five).

I am currently thinking about getting one of the new PB4 or PB5 basses. The only thing that is saving me right now is that I haven't fully decided on what options I want.

Dos Miguel
03-13-2014, 03:10 PM
Oh man I've got GAS for the carvin pb5! It's too bad my bank account isn't bloated like my GAS bubble.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Noel1983
03-14-2014, 06:52 PM
@ ghsk1: Yeah, I'm thinking about buying a hard shell case for the Ibanez just so that I have somewhere to put all of my collected stickers. The ad departments of these companies are savvy to keep us buying!. But seriously, that GRAMMA mat made my 45 watt Behringer sound bigger, and fuller (and ended the vibrating change jar) and I didn't adjust it any way at all. I didn't try the new MB210 on the floor vs. the mat, but I assume that it would have been even more effective if I had due to the increased power.

@ elmeaux: Thank you, I really give Roy 90% of the credit. I still haven't perfected lesson 4 yet, but the hazard exercise along with the moveable scale shapes has really opened up a lot of the neck and made jumping across all 4 strings a LOT easier. Rock on TMBG!

@ DaveB: Every time I go to the Carvin site, I spend an hour or more building basses. I will bring it up again, and under the proper thread, when the time comes; but my wife has informed me that she will get me an acoustic/electric bass for my birthday (October), but that she might not make me wait until then. Anyway, I have an AC50 saved in my cart already. But I have some questions before I decide.

Nicki
03-17-2014, 08:35 AM
Congrats on the new gear!!!

Noel1983
03-23-2014, 08:17 PM
Thanks Nicki